Occult Awareness

Exploring Holistic Health: Insights from Licensed Professional Counselor Mark Michalica on Chronic Illness and Trauma

June 07, 2024 Amy Wang-Hiller Episode 7
Exploring Holistic Health: Insights from Licensed Professional Counselor Mark Michalica on Chronic Illness and Trauma
Occult Awareness
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Occult Awareness
Exploring Holistic Health: Insights from Licensed Professional Counselor Mark Michalica on Chronic Illness and Trauma
Jun 07, 2024 Episode 7
Amy Wang-Hiller

Send us a Text Message.

In this episode of Occult Awareness, we welcome Mark, a licensed professional counselor and health advocate, to discuss the complex interplay between chronic illness, trauma, and holistic health approaches. Mark shares his journey as both a professional and a patient, offering valuable insights into the limitations of the medical model and the importance of viewing health holistically.

Key Discussion Points:

  • Mark's journey into counseling and his experiences with chronic health issues.
  • The role of holistic approaches in managing chronic illness.
  • Understanding the medical model and its limitations.
  • The impact of trauma on physical and mental health.
  • The importance of looking at the body and mind as interconnected systems.
  • Challenges faced by patients with undiagnosed or misdiagnosed conditions.
  • The need for greater collaboration and open-mindedness in the healthcare field.

This episode aims to illuminate the often-overlooked aspects of patient care and advocate for a more integrative approach to health and wellness.

Join us for an enlightening conversation that bridges the gap between traditional medical practices and holistic health philosophies.

Support the Show.

Please follow us on social media @Occult_Awareness, and join us on Facebook.
Sign up newsletterhttp://occultawareness.com/ & watch the video format on Youtube @OccultAwareness

Please leave your review. Your feedback is so valuable to us! And it will help us reach more listeners like you.

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If you found this episode valuable, please consider supporting us on Ko-fi. Your donations help us continue to raise awareness and share important stories.

Thank you for your support!

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Show Notes Transcript

Send us a Text Message.

In this episode of Occult Awareness, we welcome Mark, a licensed professional counselor and health advocate, to discuss the complex interplay between chronic illness, trauma, and holistic health approaches. Mark shares his journey as both a professional and a patient, offering valuable insights into the limitations of the medical model and the importance of viewing health holistically.

Key Discussion Points:

  • Mark's journey into counseling and his experiences with chronic health issues.
  • The role of holistic approaches in managing chronic illness.
  • Understanding the medical model and its limitations.
  • The impact of trauma on physical and mental health.
  • The importance of looking at the body and mind as interconnected systems.
  • Challenges faced by patients with undiagnosed or misdiagnosed conditions.
  • The need for greater collaboration and open-mindedness in the healthcare field.

This episode aims to illuminate the often-overlooked aspects of patient care and advocate for a more integrative approach to health and wellness.

Join us for an enlightening conversation that bridges the gap between traditional medical practices and holistic health philosophies.

Support the Show.

Please follow us on social media @Occult_Awareness, and join us on Facebook.
Sign up newsletterhttp://occultawareness.com/ & watch the video format on Youtube @OccultAwareness

Please leave your review. Your feedback is so valuable to us! And it will help us reach more listeners like you.

Support Us on Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/occultawareness

If you found this episode valuable, please consider supporting us on Ko-fi. Your donations help us continue to raise awareness and share important stories.

Thank you for your support!

00;00;04;01 - 00;00;33;20
Speaker 1
Welcome to episode seven of A awareness, the podcast dedicated to uncover the hidden truths of rare and misunderstood medical conditions. I'm your host, Amy, and today we are joined by Mark Michalica, a licensed professional counselor and a remarkable therapist who has a deep understanding of the psychological challenges faced by those with occult conditions.

00;00;33;20 - 00;00;48;16
Speaker 1
In this episode, Mark shares his unique journey from battling chronic health issues himself to becoming a therapist who approach mental health with a holistic perspective.

00;00;48;18 - 00;01;15;21
Speaker 1
We explored the intersections of mental and physical health, the pitfalls of traditional medical diagnosis, and the importance of looking at patients as a whole being. Mark's insights shed light on the critical need for a more integrated approach to health care. So let's dive into the enlightening conversation today.

00;01;15;21 - 00;01;31;05
Unknown
Who.

00;01;39;29 - 00;01;57;06
Speaker 1
therapist. But today we got a different view. and also, I know that he has a lot of chronic issue in the past and really, can tell you a little bit more about him, from the patient side of perspective. And so welcome, Mark.

00;01;57;09 - 00;01;59;29
Speaker 2
Thank you for.

00;02;00;03 - 00;02;08;10
Speaker 1
So I, I want to start with just just talk about a little bit your, you know, your professional, career.

00;02;08;10 - 00;02;34;10
Speaker 2
And I got into counseling, because of my, my background in history. I probably never would have gone into counseling, but my, my undergrad was in health sciences, and, and, at the time, well, I was still doing my undergrad in 89, I started having health issues, and, that went on for eight years.

00;02;34;10 - 00;02;57;04
Speaker 2
So I won't get into that right now. But so and as I was coming out of that, recovery, recovering from that, I had been already at that point, my, my own health advocate, I had been researching in depth health issues as, as you have as well, trying to get answers to help myself

00;02;57;04 - 00;03;06;00
Speaker 2
and so from there, I when I was I wanted to continue in the health field and became a massage therapist.

00;03;06;02 - 00;03;24;07
Speaker 2
it was involved in other things at one point and somehow eventually ended up in counseling. It was it was a progression. It just sort of it wasn't something I planned at once. I basically I had a I had a point where I was like, I know that my undergrad isn't enough. I need to go back to school.

00;03;24;08 - 00;03;46;15
Speaker 2
I don't know what to do. And I had thought about going into chiropractic or or acupuncture or counseling, and I decided into counseling because I thought at the time I could use some of my other skills and experience from from my own personal life and in other ways to kind of look at what can help people in a more holistic fashion.

00;03;46;16 - 00;03;52;20
Speaker 1
So nice. So more like towards, holistic medicine.

00;03;52;22 - 00;04;16;23
Speaker 2
I mean, that that's always that's always kind of my focus because that's just my, my background. So when I, when I, when I talk to people and meet people, I don't just I'm not just listening to the to their few complaints that they might have in that moment. I'm also looking at, you know, their background, which sometimes they don't want to go there or they don't want to talk about, or also physical health issues.

00;04;16;26 - 00;04;22;19
Speaker 2
I try to look at the whole picture just because it gives me a different and a, I think, a better perspective.

00;04;22;19 - 00;04;32;28
Speaker 1
that's really awesome because I think that is what right now medical system that lacks is to see a person as a whole. Right.

00;04;32;28 - 00;04;51;06
Speaker 2
Said that it lacks. Yes. Yeah. It lacks. Yeah. It does unfortunately. I mean like I said, when I started, when I started developing health issues, it was 89. So how many years is that now? It's 2024. So that's 2434.

00;04;51;08 - 00;04;53;11
Speaker 1
yea, so three or four decades more...

00;04;53;11 - 00;05;05;14
Speaker 2
It's more it's a few it's a few years and we've made some changes. And then at the same time we were almost haven’t. So there's there's a lot more work that needs to be done here.

00;05;05;17 - 00;05;10;20
Speaker 1
Yeah. So can you go into a little bit more about you as a patient at that time?

00;05;10;22 - 00;05;37;26
Speaker 2
So I mean, when you're when you're looking at anyone, I'll just I'll just be general and then I'll go back. I'll go to myself. When you're looking at anyone. dealing with chronic health issues, the way I look at it is, is there's, there's there's sometimes many factors that lead up to it. I sometimes look at a simple, simple, metaphor like the barrel effect, where many factors lead to someone eventually developing chronic health issues.

00;05;37;29 - 00;06;03;09
Speaker 2
and then the treatment oftentimes. Well, not to jump ahead, but the treatment, oftentimes the way the medical community looks at it is treating symptoms. But even even if you're trying to treat the problem, you can't just treat the final thing that caused the person to to develop the chronic health issues. Let's say someone is was exposed to mold, and then they started developing chronic health issues after that.

00;06;03;11 - 00;06;28;21
Speaker 2
Mold is just one factor that that may be among many that caused that. So in my case, the final factor or the final straw that that caused me to have health issues was, I had, a virus in, in my undergrad, which, you don't hear much about these days, but, it's it's in there. It's in the, herpes family.

00;06;28;24 - 00;07;03;11
Speaker 2
Epstein-Barr, cytomegalovirus, all of those viruses. so it was kind of similar to what people talk about these days, with the word long haulers. and so I had CMV, sort of meglio virus. I didn't know it at the time. I don't even know if blood work existed for that back then. and typically, one would have one would, even with something like that, which was pretty typical Epstein-Barr back in the 80s, 90s, people would get sick for a couple of weeks, and then they would get better.

00;07;03;13 - 00;07;44;04
Speaker 2
I didn't, and and after I got, I got over the virus, so to speak. I started developing severe food allergies and, systemic muscle, tendon, ligament issues. And, and that just progressed to the point that I could barely dress myself and barely functioned. And I lost a lot of weight over the years and, and saw probably over 50 doctors and other health professionals as I was again researching different, different treatments and modalities and all of that.

00;07;44;06 - 00;07;47;11
Speaker 2
and, and that's how I ended up in Texas. So,

00;07;47;13 - 00;08;06;14
Speaker 1
So from what you said before us, they are pretty much not, but many changes, in the health field for almost like three decades. so can you imagine?

00;08;06;16 - 00;08;11;08
Speaker 2
It seems to be quick, but yeah, 89. That's 90 plus ten is,

00;08;11;11 - 00;08;12;10
Speaker 1
Okay.

00;08;12;12 - 00;08;14;29
Speaker 2
I'm 36. I can't count right now.

00;08;15;01 - 00;08;40;19
Speaker 1
Okay. Yeah. It is so on time. I wasn't even born yet. Like, you know, I I'm a 1990 baby, so. Yeah. I mean, I'm not really 33, almost 34, so I think I can kind of love it better because of that. Yeah, yeah. going to a little bit more since you said, hasn't really changed much.

00;08;40;21 - 00;08;46;09
Speaker 1
And so what do you mean by that? And what do you feel that it hasn't really changed?

00;08;46;11 - 00;09;12;27
Speaker 2
Well, I think I think there's a I think there's more awareness than there was back then. to what I would now call a complementary health, approach as more people are aware of meditation, yoga, herbs and other and other approaches like that. And at the same time, many approaches have not really, getting any kind of recognition.

00;09;13;00 - 00;09;36;25
Speaker 2
different types of body work therapy, like, something I mentioned to you, creating your sacral therapy, myofascial release, Rolfing energy work, Reiki everywhere. A lot of people are familiar with Reiki now, even though, there's a lot of controversy around around that type of treatment among many people. Homoeopathy, not much has changed in that regard.

00;09;36;25 - 00;09;58;19
Speaker 2
So you have all of these modalities that have been around for for a long time, even acupuncture, right, from, from your home country, so to speak. it's a it's a much more of a subtle way of diagnosing and treating people because you're not using blood work. You're basically looking at energy and energy systems and how how organs work together.

00;09;58;22 - 00;10;36;13
Speaker 2
So yeah, so there's there's been some there's been obviously knowledge about these systems for many years. There seems to be more, at least somewhat of awareness in the general public. But I wouldn't say it's it's really helped. And then in the medical field, I think some, I'm, I am aware that some cancer treatment facilities like MD Anderson and others are starting to incorporate nutrition, which they never did, which is surprising in itself, but they never thought nutrition played any factor in your health.

00;10;36;15 - 00;10;57;19
Speaker 2
Years ago. And so now they're starting to understand it. Yes. And what you put in your body actually does make a difference. yes. Meditation is is something that can help with stress and other issues. I mean, there's plenty of studies to show that it can be helpful for many things. And so they're starting to incorporate some of this, but it's it's still is still considered.

00;10;57;22 - 00;11;24;02
Speaker 2
I think kind of is it an adjunct or is it kind of on the fringe in some way? It's really still not incorporated been into the diagnosis, into the, kind of view that they, that they, that they have when, when working with, with patients and what I, what I, the words I use are the medical model like their medical model.

00;11;24;07 - 00;12;06;25
Speaker 1
So if it's not in there model, if it's alternative medicine, does the do you see how much the medical field have that it's not charging them that diagnosis? Or are they just feel like it's still kind of on the side of like, oh, that that's not our M.D. who diagnose do it. Does that make sense? If you take whatever acupuncture and, the other doctors who did a little bit of metal facial or and then going back to the medical doctor say, hey, you know, they said I have, for example, Queen or seven points to follow.

00;12;06;25 - 00;12;19;29
Speaker 1
That's what I have. And then the, the actual neurologist or neurosurgeon would acknowledge it or still like a brushing on says that's not what we look for. That makes sense.

00;12;20;01 - 00;12;42;03
Speaker 2
So I think first of all, yeah, the medical model, the way I see it, I mean, where we have the all these specialists that divide the body up into pieces is a there's a problem in and of itself because the body works as a whole. The body also works on an energetic or spiritual level, mental level, on an emotional level, and it all works together.

00;12;42;03 - 00;13;12;19
Speaker 2
But yeah, when when a doctor looks at someone, they are both so limited by their knowledge and by their by their, their, their training. And so if, if they, if, if it doesn't fit into I keep saying this and I don't want to put them in a box, but kind of like if it doesn't fit what, what I, what I, what I know or I don't have a medical instrument to test you just to see, oh yeah, there's a problem where there isn't a problem.

00;13;12;19 - 00;13;40;03
Speaker 2
Well, then. It's not that. It's not there. I guess in some cases, or at least that's that's the way some people have viewed it. And that's the way people looked at me when I was going through health issues. I didn't fall into into a category or into a box. And so obviously there's either no problem or, or, maybe something in the future can help you or, or maybe, maybe there's some snake oil out there that that will help.

00;13;40;09 - 00;13;50;07
Speaker 2
Because that was that was the view that some, some, some doctors have and still unfortunately, some have when it comes to some of these other modalities.

00;13;50;10 - 00;14;22;27
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I know I was very frustrated about the whole entire, you know, journey through getting even diagnosed and then often telling you that, you know, how it is not really possible for them to really not alleging there is something wrong. Yeah. How do you feel about often, you know, getting those tests back as a patient and tell you that it's just all normal, but then you still not right.

00;14;23;00 - 00;14;53;24
Speaker 2
Well, it's been so long that since I've been a patient, that it's hard for me to, share my experience. I know when I was, when I was ill, I just, I didn't I didn't really I was so focused on getting well and getting answers that I didn't like what, what, what what doctor said. And I was once told by a group of doctors that, that maybe there's there's some snake oil out there that will help me, that those were actual words that were used.

00;14;53;27 - 00;15;18;02
Speaker 2
And but I didn't let it in. I somehow it didn't linger in my head and and it didn't keep me down. And I can't tell you why that didn't, but probably because I was so stubborn that, I, I just, I didn't know anything better, but just to keep, keep, keep moving forward. and so I continued, I continued to do my research.

00;15;18;02 - 00;15;46;00
Speaker 2
I continued to seek answers, and, I can't tell you. I can't tell you what made me do that. And and, you know, some some people would use other words like synchronicity or, you know, or divine intervention or God or, you know, all kinds of different words, you know, but somehow I ended up in Texas, where I worked with a medical doctor, which is also an interesting story.

00;15;46;00 - 00;16;16;29
Speaker 2
I'll just say a word about that. He's passed away now, Doctor William Ray, who, started and used to run the Environmental Health Center of Dallas, which is still in operation, but a different doctor has is now is now running a doctor, Elizabeth Seymore. and the center still exists in Plano, Texas. But at the time, doctor Ray was was the foremost expert, not just in environmental medicine but other chronic health issues.

00;16;17;01 - 00;16;45;17
Speaker 2
And he worked with people all over the world because he worked with patients that the doctors literally gave up on. And you, you've met doctors like that, I think. Yeah. And when he first met me, he didn't seem fazed. He just he just brought me in and was like, well, you're going to go to the hospital. We're going to put you on TPN, which no doctor up until that point had ever suggested, which is which is abbreviation for total parental.

00;16;45;17 - 00;17;14;12
Speaker 2
I think parental parental nutrition, where they basically mainline you through the chest and feed you with with an eye every time. All of that was in glass, because he was a firm believer that plastics and all of these chemicals have an effect on our health. So I went from almost 110 pounds to gaining, up to 140 pounds again during my one and a half month stay, which basically changed my life.

00;17;14;14 - 00;17;37;24
Speaker 2
my allergies went from I look at a lot of things on the spectrum. They went from up here would be 97% to two, down to 20%, literally overnight. Of course, he was a part of other things that I was doing and other, other people I was working with. But, if it wasn't for him, I would have been long gone.

00;17;37;24 - 00;18;00;13
Speaker 2
And I guess that's what I wanted to say. I'm sorry for jumping in. He was a medical doctor. He was a thoracic surgeon. So as a thoracic surgeon, he performed colon surgery on me. And the type of work that he did in helping people was way outside the box. Even the type of allergy testing that the clinic that he started did.

00;18;00;13 - 00;18;12;22
Speaker 2
And during his career, he was sued multiple times by insurance companies, I believe, by the Texas Medical Board for practicing and doing the things that they believed he shouldn't be doing.

00;18;12;24 - 00;18;16;02
Speaker 1
So did he ever get suspended? It was his license.

00;18;16;05 - 00;18;33;17
Speaker 2
I don't know if it came to that. I believe he he was able to, to, to avoid that and fight through that every time. But, it was not easy. I, I know that, because I know it happened many, many times.

00;18;33;17 - 00;18;59;20
Speaker 1
I think this is really important for, patients need to know because they often I mean, even though I've talked to what? It's the other, experts in the field of, like, public health. And I often think that, you know, it's, it's normal for a doctor to be in the box because they don't want to be sued. And then often we also hear, don't go to that doctor because he has a lot of, like lawsuit on himself.

00;18;59;22 - 00;19;09;14
Speaker 1
But the funny thing in love, like when I hear the lawsuit, it's all coming from the medicine board, not from the patient themselves.

00;19;09;16 - 00;19;34;26
Speaker 2
In this case. Yeah, in this case, I would say yes. I think sometimes it can come from patients, you know, if, if there's, there's, you know, of course that happens. We all know that. I don't know if he ever faced any lawsuits from patients, but. Yeah. there was many from the, the medical professionals, unfortunately. And even his diagnosis and his treatment of me was way outside of the box.

00;19;34;29 - 00;20;24;06
Speaker 2
I had seen many gastroenterologists by then who were specialists in the GI system. Nobody ever suggested TPA. Nobody ever suggested colon surgery. So, unfortunately, so even within our medical system, and with the knowledge that is known, again, a lot depends on, on on unseen things. I don't know what words to use in a different way, in a more holistic way, being more open to, to, you know, using that information to, to, piece things together, in a way that may not fit what we think is, is, is a standard narrative, and being open to, to accepting that we don't know everything and that there may be things that we

00;20;24;06 - 00;20;51;22
Speaker 2
still don't know. So there's, there's, there's, there's, there's a couple things going on. Right with with the way doctors sometimes view patients. This seems this has been a common I've heard a number of patients who come in to see me, who and obviously I'm not a medical doctor but are exhibiting common signs of hypothyroidism. And and they were they've been told many times that, well, your your blood tests are normal.

00;20;51;25 - 00;21;10;13
Speaker 2
you're you're so you're fine. And so you should see a go see a counselor or a psychiatrist. And then the crazy thing is that even within the medical field, there is a term for that. And they know this. It's called subclinical hypothyroidism, which means that you have symptoms, but they don't show up on the bloodwork.

00;21;10;14 - 00;21;40;01
Speaker 1
Because as medical field that they said about everything seems normal, right? Tests supposed to be, within normal limits. And so you should be fine and then send you to the counselor and then, you know, as the counselor and, like, you see these patients, you're like, oh, I mean, I hear those stories, but I do really want to hear this part because I think it really reflects the fact that the within northern limits just doesn't really seem to be normal.

00;21;40;01 - 00;22;04;29
Speaker 2
Is a setting on your dryer. Right. So that's, you know, that's saying have you ever know. So anyway, normal is is setting on your dryer. Yeah. There's there is no normal. So these normal limits these these these things whether it's MRI or Cat scans or ultrasounds or then we go to bloodwork. If something shows up on your bloodwork you've got some serious problems.

00;22;04;29 - 00;22;27;00
Speaker 2
By that point, it isn't like, oh, like bloodwork is so sensitive. Look, we're seeing something on your bloodwork. This this could be a problem. You better get some some testing on this. You know, if it's showing up on your bloodwork, you've got serious problems by that point. So those these kinds of tests oftentimes are very I'm going to use the word I don't know if I'm saying it right.

00;22;27;00 - 00;22;48;14
Speaker 2
Gross. Or you know, is that the way you even said gross? I think it's gross. They, they are as sensitive as we believe them to be. They just start. Honestly, you are the first person that they're brought to the term FMD to me. I don't know if it was around when I was when I was sick, because I'm sure they would have used it for me.

00;22;48;16 - 00;22;52;15
Speaker 2
And, but yeah, I can speak more about that is.

00;22;52;16 - 00;23;29;09
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's why I mean, fmd as, diagnosis of functional neurological disorder. Basically, I present so much of you neurological issues, but because it doesn't assure in light relation tests or, you know, a puncture on the CSF, you know, and so, consider as just like, functional as a nicer term, in a way, as I saw that during the Mayo Clinic, of a slash conversion disorder rate changer.

00;23;29;11 - 00;23;53;17
Speaker 1
And so, it's basically the the brain has something to do with software if you really connect with the body, which we already know, like in my case, that was such a do you feel as we talk about conversion disorder, do you feel like over the years you see patients where it's more of an overt diagnosis or diagnosis.

00;23;53;19 - 00;23;54;29
Speaker 2
Of mental health issues.

00;23;55;00 - 00;23;56;20
Speaker 1
Or just.

00;23;56;23 - 00;23;57;24
Speaker 2
Or just.

00;23;57;26 - 00;23;59;23
Speaker 1
Diagnosis in general?

00;23;59;25 - 00;24;01;13
Speaker 2
That's a broad question.

00;24;01;13 - 00;24;03;14
Speaker 1
That would be a little bit from the okay.

00;24;03;17 - 00;24;36;28
Speaker 2
Okay. Yeah. I mean, well, definitely in terms of mental health diagnoses, there's there's a lot of general diagnosis diagnoses that I seen that are thrown around left right, willy nilly. Bipolar is one of them way over diagnosed. and even though I well, I don't know if I have to say this or not, sometimes, even if someone isn't bipolar, sometimes bipolar meds can help balance, things, in, in certain cases.

00;24;37;01 - 00;25;07;12
Speaker 2
But, a lot of diagnoses that are thrown around and sometimes, yes, too many diagnosis, I mean, that's kind of their, their thing is to diagnose and treat with medication. So I sometimes I think they feel like their hands are tied and they don't know what else to do. that's my perspective. But, honestly, I think one of the biggest, things that we're oftentimes missing, is, is this and I and I've seen it and I continue to see it again and again and again.

00;25;07;12 - 00;25;38;15
Speaker 2
And that is PTSD, I think. I think we're starting to recognize it more. But I think a lot of people still have, don't and then again, I think there's different degrees to PTSD, but nobody that that is alive today doesn't experience some level of trauma. It's just to what degree. And I think PTSD then can lead to different, mental health issues from depression to anxiety to mood swings, to this, to that, to everything else.

00;25;38;17 - 00;25;42;25
Speaker 2
So yeah, again, we don't, recognize it.

00;25;42;28 - 00;26;02;18
Speaker 1
So I know that you probably have a lot of cases of people who have depression or anxiety and, can speak a little bit more about often people experiencing it in the silo depression versus actually call it as a disorder.

00;26;02;21 - 00;26;04;17
Speaker 2
I'm not sure if I understand.

00;26;04;19 - 00;26;25;25
Speaker 1
Because I want to see what your perspective is as a professional CalFire, that often a lot of patients might come in saying that, you know, that's the disorder. They have anxiety, general and family disorder. But, you know, we all have life events.

00;26;25;27 - 00;26;27;12
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;26;27;14 - 00;26;49;29
Speaker 1
So they might not really have disorder and such that but then was just having depression or anxiety symptoms and yeah. Feel like do you feel like with talk therapy that helps most of these cases and not medication?

00;26;49;29 - 00;27;14;12
Speaker 2
I don't that you let me say this. First of all, sometimes we use terms like my anxiety, right. Or my depression or for or we identify with a certain with anxiety or depression or bipolar or this or that or and whatever it might be. And I don't see it that way. And I don't encourage the, the clients that see me to see it that way.

00;27;14;12 - 00;27;38;00
Speaker 2
But so I will make gentle suggestions, you know, to see it as is. again, it's more of symptoms oftentimes of, of of again, like like I said, you said of, of, of issues that may have happened, things that, that may have happened to them in the past. And some of that may be genetic as well.

00;27;38;03 - 00;28;00;06
Speaker 2
And and so, I get when working with, with clients, I mean, I again, I try to look at it from a kind of a holistic perspective, even in terms of, of the treatment rather than just, oh, yeah, you have depression or anxiety. So therefore you must need medication, or CBT counseling. And excuse me, everybody's, everybody's different.

00;28;00;12 - 00;28;14;05
Speaker 2
And so I, you know, do my best to meet people where, where they're at, I mean, and, and, and kind of, try to work from that perspective.

00;28;14;05 - 00;28;38;23
Speaker 1
So when a person from a medical work to getting the diagnosis, you know, some anxiety, depression, like, illnesses and then come to you, do you feel like. So I don't know if you're familiar with going to a doctor's office and often getting screening for depression or anxiety?

00;28;38;24 - 00;28;42;04
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a short little. Yeah. Simple little. Yeah.

00;28;42;05 - 00;28;44;18
Speaker 1
I feel like those are helpful.

00;28;44;21 - 00;28;53;15
Speaker 2
Not really. I mean, in some cases it might be, I know what they're trying to do, but whether they're helpful or not is questionable.

00;28;53;20 - 00;28;56;06
Speaker 1
So what do you mean? They tried to do what?

00;28;56;09 - 00;29;26;06
Speaker 2
Well, they're they're they're I mean, they're trying to be helpful in the best way that they know how, but I but I've, I've even known, unfortunately, other health professionals who are in the, in the, in my field, in the mental health field or psychiatry field, you know, who talk about, depression or anxiety. And sometimes they will make suggestions like, well, you know, if you're feeling anxious, just just take a few deep breaths and you know, everything will be all right.

00;29;26;11 - 00;29;48;08
Speaker 2
Like is is if it were that simple. I mean, again, nothing, nothing, nothing is is quite as simple as we make it out to be. So I mean, again, these these simple little questionnaires are again a very simplistic way of, of, of, of looking at something. and I just scratched the surface, you know, so.

00;29;48;10 - 00;30;10;07
Speaker 1
So with people actually experiencing some of the mental side of the fact and when they're experiencing physical things, do you see people get often not like being taking serious.

00;30;10;10 - 00;30;39;16
Speaker 2
So I don't I don't work in a hospital where, where I might see more of that. I have seen, again with I mentioned the, hypothyroidism. and I have seen, people come in to my office and when I used to work at, in shamar with, sometimes with, severe, PTSD or other other mental health issues, who also had, some physical health issues.

00;30;39;19 - 00;31;14;05
Speaker 2
so, yes, at times I recognize there's a correlation. Correlation because, again, I look at things holistically. I can even talk about my own story I mentioned, I mentioned the physical part of my story, which was I got a virus in, in, in, my undergrad. I, I had hypothyroidism as a as well. At one time I had, a history of, of, of colon problems on both sides of my family, which kind of predisposed me to have those issues.

00;31;14;08 - 00;31;37;24
Speaker 2
so there was definitely physical factors, but I also recognized that there was a psychological component from the from the trauma. I experienced, in, in, in my family system, family of origin. And so it's sometimes hard to say. Well, you know, everything everything is, is is a factor. well, I'm going to I'm going to if I can.

00;31;37;24 - 00;32;10;07
Speaker 2
I'll talk about you for a minute, because I didn't I never heard the term f and d until until you brought it up. And, I, I know, and we've worked together for, for, for a few years, and I know your story, quite well. And I also know enough about your past to know that, you know, when I, when you first told me about D and you first told me that that's what that's what you were given as a diagnosis, it just seemed absurd to me.

00;32;10;09 - 00;32;51;25
Speaker 2
because, the the it was, it was just it didn't fit the picture. Your picture, your profile is the word some people would use. It was like this. It was like trying to connect dots. But FMD was out here and you were here. This was your profile. if that makes any sense. You know, there was no extreme trauma or or or there was no extreme, like, I don't know, like a car accident from the past or something that that, that affected, you know, physical trauma that affected you, that would have led to some kind of diagnosis, in my opinion, humble opinion as a non doctor to the diagnosis.

00;32;51;28 - 00;33;15;20
Speaker 2
D whereas. Yeah. So I've seen again, I've seen patients with extreme PTSD and where I can start making connections with some of their, some of their health issues. Is, is it possible for us to, to make those kinds of correlations? Not really. I mean, because we don't have, again, testing that's sensitive or enough or things to do that.

00;33;15;22 - 00;33;33;26
Speaker 2
But I think sometimes it, it seems to me anyway. And I'm again, maybe overstepping my, profession, but that, that diagnosis, is used when, when, when they don't know what else to say or what else, what else to label.

00;33;33;29 - 00;33;52;27
Speaker 1
So it's interesting that, you haven't seen a lot of cases from like, conversion disorders or, yes. You know, like in that spectrum of psychogenic, they psychogenic term then to, to, feel a counselor.

00;33;53;00 - 00;34;28;26
Speaker 2
Yeah. I, I for whatever reason, even though, on on my, psychology today profile, I talk about, chronic pain and I think I, I don't know if I mentioned chronic health issues, so I talk about that in my profile and I think probably, maybe on my website, but I don't know, it it just seems like again, it's an interesting thing that the and maybe that's just again, how, how we view things in our, in our culture is still like, the physical problems are over in this category and the mental health problems are in that category.

00;34;28;29 - 00;34;57;06
Speaker 2
They there's no connection unless you have symptoms that are that don't fit or that are, that we that we don't understand. And, you know, and I'm not really sure, you know. Yeah. again, I, I, I, I believe that, and yeah, that everything is interconnected. But at the same time, it has to make sense again within that, within the context of, of of of yeah.

00;34;57;08 - 00;35;15;24
Speaker 1
How you can identify because I, I think we kind of mentioned a little bit before that you that you said you do have, patients who actually do have extreme PTSD but don't really seem to have anything functional.

00;35;15;29 - 00;35;40;03
Speaker 2
Right? I mean, they're they're I mean, for all intents and purposes, they're, they're they're healthy. I mean, some of them start to develop, health issues. Well, we all develop health issues. So again, the doctor can say, well, look, you seem to be developing fibromyalgia. you've got, endometriosis and you've got ovarian cysts and you've got whatever this, whatever the things may be.

00;35;40;05 - 00;36;01;00
Speaker 2
you know, is there a correlation with that and the fact that you were sexually abused for six years? As you know, growing up and experienced mental emotional abuse is is it is that a factor? All we can do is kind of look at it and say, well, that's that's interesting that. But you know, there's a there may be a pattern here or at least that's that's the way I look at it.

00;36;01;00 - 00;36;28;16
Speaker 2
But I think, and I guess, I guess I could jump, to, to this, to this, to this, idea when a doctor is working with someone who has a heart disease or cancer or diabetes or or a well-known illness like that, you would never you probably will never hear the doctor say, well, I think, I think, you know, that that, you know, it sounds looked into.

00;36;28;18 - 00;36;47;09
Speaker 2
Have you considered going to a counselor or a psychiatrist? That's not going to be the first thing they tell you. It may not even be a thing they ever will tell you. And so, yeah, or they're certainly not going to use the words f and d. Yeah. Or other words that, that you've been told. And obviously others have been told.

00;36;47;09 - 00;36;57;07
Speaker 2
So it's, it's, it's, it's a question of are you I, I'm confused by it and I don't know what.

00;36;57;10 - 00;37;01;15
Speaker 1
The maybe just because I can see some markers that it's.

00;37;01;18 - 00;37;29;02
Speaker 2
Oh obviously we have tests that we can, we can see the cancer on, on scans. we have bloodwork where we, we're, we're, we're we're showing up on the bloodwork again because it's it's already there. Yeah. Again, like I said earlier, it's it's there now. We can definitely see it on the bloodwork. Now, unfortunately we don't have the tests that are so sensitive where they would show up five years before you developed the cancer, that would say, you know what?

00;37;29;07 - 00;37;48;18
Speaker 2
We're starting to see signs that you're going to get cancer if you don't do something differently. I mean, let's look at other let's look at, you know, some, some, some options here or some things that you might change or do that that might help to prevent that. so at that point we're, we're showing, we're seeing.

00;37;48;25 - 00;38;17;13
Speaker 1
Yeah, I know that it's being thrown around a lot with those functional things or, you know, like, psychological, issues that represent those. So I know that, you have a few patients or just one to like, you remember that actually do have both, like seeing physical symptoms manifested from trauma or possible.

00;38;17;16 - 00;38;47;14
Speaker 2
I mean, I again, I can only make I can causation correlation. You know, I can only make, I can only look at patterns and go, okay, that there may be some, connections here. You know, we may be able to connect the dots here, so to speak. I can look at myself and say, did did did my, did did the trauma I experienced growing up, did that lead to my becoming sick?

00;38;47;16 - 00;38;52;05
Speaker 2
I can't say. Well, if I hadn't experience that trauma, I wouldn't have been sick.

00;38;52;07 - 00;38;53;29
Speaker 1
but I do think so.

00;38;54;01 - 00;39;09;11
Speaker 2
But I I'm saying I can't say that 100%, but I but maybe, you know, maybe it was a question mark. because I know it had a big, a big effect. So, you know, how much is it's impossible to say.

00;39;09;13 - 00;39;22;21
Speaker 1
I like your, one of the analogy, but, I think you mentioned that before, too, with your chronic illnesses. is that often people have been collective.

00;39;22;25 - 00;39;47;25
Speaker 2
It's a very simple analogy, and it's a very two dimensional picture. Right. We I think we could, we could, we could, expand on that and then get a little bit more, sophisticated or a little bit more, something I can't think of the word and kind of look at it probably be in a more in a bigger third dimension or, you know, a little more something.

00;39;47;25 - 00;40;18;10
Speaker 2
I can't think of the word right now, but yeah, the barrel effect, and, it was actually, when I first saw that it was at the Environmental Health Center. Doctor Ray had, in, in his his building. And so in the, in the barrel was like, again, he was big into chemicals. He believed the chemicals in our environment, in our food, etc., in our water, predisposed us to other health issues.

00;40;18;10 - 00;40;45;00
Speaker 2
Again, I think it's a factor. I don't think it's, you know, maybe as, as, as much as as as he believed, but so chemical. and to go along with that, metals, for instance mercury. I, I'll just go there and say mercury amalgam fillings. and then you've got, what else? Viruses, parasites, bacteria and genetics and psychological emotional issues.

00;40;45;05 - 00;41;09;16
Speaker 2
I know I'm, I'm missing a whole bunch, right now. and then, of course, hidden allergy symptoms that people do have for, for whatever reason. So, yeah, all of these, all of these, factors. And I mentioned I, I guess I could throw in mold, because that that's, that's like a separate from chemical and virus and bacteria and all that.

00;41;09;18 - 00;41;44;01
Speaker 2
yeah. I mentioned the case of, of somebody becoming sick from mold. So again, you have all these factors that, that we all that our bodies are supposed to just somehow adjust to or, detox or whatever word you want to use as if, as if that's normal. It's really kind of amazing to me at times, that we as humans can, can be faced with so many different obstacles or so many different things and, and still be fine.

00;41;44;03 - 00;42;03;00
Speaker 2
but sometimes we aren't fine, and we don't even know that we're not fine, because, again, we can't test for it. and so the barrel is filling up. Yeah. You know, that barrel is filling up. So we know the water's rising, but we don't know it. We just think, oh, I'm just a little tired. I'm fine, you know?

00;42;03;00 - 00;42;08;00
Speaker 2
And then. And then it's just sometimes it just takes one more thing and, you know.

00;42;08;03 - 00;42;20;21
Speaker 1
So you think that, with chronic illness patients that, In a sense, working on mental health always would be really beneficial.

00;42;20;24 - 00;42;49;08
Speaker 2
I think it would be beneficial for anybody. Yes. Any any patient, or person, whatever words we want to use, any, any client. I don't know anybody that again that doesn't, hasn't experienced some trauma and sometimes can benefit from from talking to someone or learning some different tools of coping with with, with issues. as you know, begin to learning about mindfulness and meditation.

00;42;49;11 - 00;43;00;03
Speaker 2
and so yeah, so doing some things of that nature again I think helpful for anybody dealing with whatever it is, whether it's cancer or heart disease. But yeah.

00;43;00;03 - 00;43;32;17
Speaker 1
So yeah, let's talk about a heart condition, into, picture as like, you know, with these people, they often don't get answers. Right. So how can they be beneficial from, you know, talking to someone like you, for example, when people with, things, like they just couldn't get diagnosis. Okay. And then they couldn't get, doctors put a point, point to what's going on, right?

00;43;32;17 - 00;43;36;23
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's often not really a nice easy result, like.

00;43;36;28 - 00;44;05;11
Speaker 2
Right. You know, tests aren't showing, blood work, etc.. So you're sent to a counselor in the council was like, yeah, I well, it depends on your counselor. Not everybody. I'm not trying to, you know, lift myself up here or whatever, but not every counselor sees things holistically. A lot of counselors, are kind of, have been taught in a similar way to the medical model.

00;44;05;11 - 00;44;36;00
Speaker 2
And so counseling is this, you know, so, we talk about stuff and we have feelings because I, I know that we are, or not just our head and not we're not just our body that everything works together again. I try to work with people to to incorporate the body, incorporate feelings in a, in a more kind of, holistic fashion.

00;44;36;00 - 00;44;43;28
Speaker 2
And, and so that we live not just up here but in, in here as well.

00;44;43;28 - 00;44;51;18
Speaker 1
So in a sense that you need to make your body function, to make that mind actually work, even better.

00;44;51;25 - 00;44;56;06
Speaker 2
Well, to, to to at least. Yeah. All all of that.

00;44;56;08 - 00;45;11;23
Speaker 1
Yeah. So if you know someone who actually being down with the medical fast like you think, those stomach can also tend to physical manifestation. Well.

00;45;11;26 - 00;45;39;25
Speaker 2
I mean I guess on some level anything can but but yeah people who have been I yeah specifically gaslit by the, by the, by the medical community, I mean, I mean, I think that's more of us that can be more frustrating and also that can be more I think, I think for some people it could, it could be both like, it could cause them to, possibly give up.

00;45;39;27 - 00;46;07;25
Speaker 2
So, I mean, in the long run, I think it could be it could be detrimental to to some people. Yeah. Because you go to a professional, whether it's a neurologist or whoever it is and you're told, well, all your, all your tests are fine. And so therefore you're fine and so, you know, I mean, because we still view doctors oftentimes as, as, as, you know, here authority there, they're the authority.

00;46;07;25 - 00;46;18;03
Speaker 2
They they know everything. And unfortunately they sometimes I think think they know everything. And so that can be that can be difficult to hear from someone that.

00;46;18;05 - 00;46;42;07
Speaker 1
I, I like the way that how you work the body at the home. So we are and unfortunately I and you really hate those kind of separation of, head and the rest of our lives or, you know, in some cases, people are dealing with actual trauma. How do you see trauma itself?

00;46;42;09 - 00;47;03;25
Speaker 1
Playing the fact that it can be manifest into something that is PTSD as well as kind of like the, the, the little, you know, the telltale sign that you need a seeking for a professional help.

00;47;03;28 - 00;47;14;09
Speaker 2
Well, I mean, PTSD, yeah, we throw the term around, but I guess we could define what that term even means. And I have to get out my I'm going to define that. But I mean.

00;47;14;11 - 00;47;15;14
Speaker 1
It's important to me.

00;47;15;17 - 00;47;50;00
Speaker 2
I mean, a simple definition. I it's, it's sometimes not easy to make, honestly a diagnosis, until you start digging around because PTSD oftentimes looks like depression and anxiety, all of these things we've been talking about mood swings, trouble sleeping. sometimes it could be nightmares. It could be, remembering whatever it was, the the the the you experienced, whether it was a car accident, whether it was, abuse of some kind.

00;47;50;02 - 00;48;15;22
Speaker 2
But sometimes it doesn't have to be, connected to the trauma anymore. Times that we start developing other, other triggers as we start calling them, you know, sometimes it's just a feeling of not feeling safe, in different environment or whatever it might be. It starts to it starts to connect to other things. And, and so, yeah.

00;48;15;25 - 00;48;43;19
Speaker 1
Do you think that kind of definition and the way that like something that can trigger, you know, the PTSD, in fact, the, medical doctor would really understand it, or are they fully understand to be qualified to, call someone having PTSD related symptoms that is physical?

00;48;43;22 - 00;49;08;13
Speaker 2
Well, no, I don't believe so. to answer that question, no, they're not. I mean, even psychiatrists, unfortunately, the way the insurance works these days and the time that people spend with with clients is not long enough, oftentimes to make a diagnosis, you know, it takes more than 20 minutes sometimes to make, make that kind of a diagnosis.

00;49;08;13 - 00;49;32;11
Speaker 2
And how many psychiatrists or doctors spend 20 minutes with you? Even on a first appointment? I used to spend an hour and a half with, with with clients when I worked at, local nonprofit mental health, center called MH and and, in that hour and a half, that was my job to, to diagnose, to do an assessment.

00;49;32;11 - 00;49;56;19
Speaker 2
And it takes at least that amount of time and sometimes it takes a little longer, because you only get so much information. So you start seeing pieces of the story. but you don't still see the whole picture with her. Yeah. So it takes a while sometimes to, to, to have to be able to give a kind of diagnosis.

00;49;56;21 - 00;50;04;21
Speaker 1
So you think that if a doctor going in for five minutes and they're not able to see the whole picture.

00;50;04;23 - 00;50;32;01
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, that would be, in five minutes. They can see the symptoms. That's kind of like, looking at a car in five minutes. I can see that, that that your engine's not starting, and, I think that you've got a, light on the dashboard that says there's a problem with the engine, and, and maybe I can plug in some instrumentation that says, well, that looks like you know, maybe it's this or this or that or something, but I don't know.

00;50;32;01 - 00;50;57;17
Speaker 2
That's that's about all I know. I can't do any more than that. There's nothing you can do in five minutes. Like I said, there's there's very little you can do in 20 minutes. I look at myself and and I knew that, I never, I never considered myself as having PTSD until I went into counseling and until I was, until I was able to go through the program myself.

00;50;57;17 - 00;51;14;10
Speaker 2
And, and I was like, wow, look at that. I guess I've got PTSD, too. So, it's it's it's not it's not something that, that, it's it's, you can't you can't you can't really.

00;51;14;12 - 00;51;20;10
Speaker 1
Do you think it's helpful for people to have a level of knowing that PTSD or, you know.

00;51;20;13 - 00;51;22;00
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yes or no.

00;51;22;02 - 00;51;25;25
Speaker 1
I don't I want to hear that.

00;51;25;27 - 00;52;08;02
Speaker 2
No, but to know that. Yeah, in some ways it really the answer is no. I mean, the end I mean, the answer is yes in some way. Just because if I say to someone, yeah, there's there's you definitely, you know, obviously the, the the the the the, the, the, there's some PTSD going on here, the, the, you know, that that's causing some of these symptoms that you're having the, the anxiety depression and it's only helpful in that at least it lets them know that, oh, I'm not crazy, you know, and it helps them like like all of us.

00;52;08;02 - 00;52;47;21
Speaker 2
It helps us to, to to to have some understanding of what's going on. But beyond that, at the end of the day, you, you still are left with. Okay. Well, I have, I have these symptoms, I have this, these, this, this, this narrative, this story. I have, these thoughts, and I've I've got, I've got to do something different for, you know, or do some things that I haven't done before to help myself feel better.

00;52;47;27 - 00;53;04;03
Speaker 2
mentally. Physically. again, to make this connection, body, mind connection, to be able to function at a, at a better level, that's, that's, regardless of the diagnosis. Yeah.

00;53;04;06 - 00;53;18;02
Speaker 1
So that means when people are diagnosed, do you feel like it's actually better for them to be entitled or misdiagnosed?

00;53;18;04 - 00;53;22;26
Speaker 2
That's not I don't know if I've got an easy answer for that. I mean.

00;53;22;29 - 00;53;28;01
Speaker 1
I think you mentioned a little bit about, before has been over.

00;53;28;04 - 00;53;29;27
Speaker 2
Oh, sure. Sure, sure.

00;53;29;29 - 00;53;55;15
Speaker 1
just even yourself, not even medical diagnosis, often that there's, a diagnosed label. Right. And for people to feel for long term and then they always say, oh, you have better prognosis with this one. Than that one. Do you feel it's better to actually getting those stable or not diagnosed.

00;53;55;18 - 00;54;17;28
Speaker 2
Well yeah I I don't, I don't have a simple answer for that. I mean, you know, I, I think sometimes it's, it gets complicated because everybody's different. And, you know, if we look at some, some people,

00;54;18;01 - 00;54;47;14
Speaker 2
who never go to the doctor, you know, maybe not knowing is better than the knowing, you know, and and sometimes knowing something where even if it's the wrong thing can be helpful for some people, it at least, at least gives them some something to to focus on, but that has. There's no easy answer. That's why everything I'm saying now has a double has two sides to it, but at the same time getting the wrong diagnosis.

00;54;47;22 - 00;55;06;06
Speaker 2
Yeah, it can also cause trouble. Oh bipolar. Well therefore this and therefore that. And it's like well not necessarily not everything's, simple, you know. so, so sometimes that diagnosis I've seen in some cases hasn't been helpful and,

00;55;06;06 - 00;55;25;04
Speaker 2
it's it's complicated. I mean, I could use autism as an example. I've, I've known some, some people on the spectrum where the, where they accepted the diagnosis and that was helpful for them and others who fought against the diagnosis and, and so it's it's it's sometimes complicated.

00;55;25;05 - 00;55;25;22
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;55;25;24 - 00;55;50;28
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, I asked because I know that there's two sides of the story. often it is difficult for a person to feel, on either side. of course it's easy. It's much easier if this person just, like, simply, you know, it's like a set of cancers. so with

00;55;50;28 - 00;55;51;25
Speaker 1
mental health

00;55;51;25 - 00;55;52;17
Speaker 1
patients.

00;55;52;17 - 00;56;01;29
Speaker 1
Do you find it? It's fair to them to say, well, you have bipolar, you must have this, this or you have this mental health issues.

00;56;02;01 - 00;56;04;04
Speaker 1
So physical issues is psychogenic.

00;56;04;04 - 00;56;06;13
Speaker 1
Do you feel like your patients,

00;56;06;13 - 00;56;12;14
Speaker 1
if they have a mental issue, it seems like they never really have any physical or in your experiences.

00;56;12;18 - 00;56;54;20
Speaker 2
Well, I mean, I, I don't focus that much on the, on, physical health issues obviously in my practice because people come, you know, with, with mental health issues or relationship issues. And so that's that, that is my focus. I, you know, I'll make suggestions sometimes to people, and either to see, you know, and some, another specialist if I can even if, you know, if I can, if there's one out there that the that I think, you know, might be helpful to them, but, then I think I just lost my cell phone in.

00;56;54;22 - 00;57;26;04
Speaker 1
I don't even know how everything could end, but it's good to explore. Okay, but if one thing that you feel like after everything you've been through and, you see the coming of the medical side and, compare to the holistic approach, if one thing that you really want to change or you rethink that should change the medical system in the health care field that makes better for patient care, would that would be.

00;57;26;06 - 00;57;28;15
Speaker 1
Or is just too many things that.

00;57;28;21 - 00;57;42;09
Speaker 2
I don't even know. You know, it's that's the thing I think that's part of the part of the reason why we are where we are the other part of the the other part of the problem is, is unfortunately, the medical field is a business like any other.

00;57;42;11 - 00;57;43;06
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;57;43;08 - 00;58;02;25
Speaker 2
and so and it's and as long as is, is, is we have a system, the socioeconomic system that we have, it's always going to be a business. so I think that's part of the reason why some people are wanting to go to a one payer system or a government run health system, in hopes that it might improve that way.

00;58;02;28 - 00;58;29;22
Speaker 2
But, I don't know. It's it's tough. I remember, my father used to tell this story, and I don't know where he got the story from about, how in in in in in in someplace some years ago that, patients would only, pay their doctor, when they were, well. Or. How did I forget how this works?

00;58;29;22 - 00;58;46;16
Speaker 2
It. I'm. I can't make sense of it, but they wouldn't pay when they're sick. So that so the incentive to the doctor was to keep them well or something. I don't remember going back to your question. Yeah. What do we need? A change about our system? That's such a big question. I think we need to be more open minded.

00;58;46;18 - 00;59;12;26
Speaker 2
I think we need to work together more. I think we need to listen to each other a little bit more. I, even within within the medical field, as, as I said. And that's part of the reason I use the story or share the story of doctor Ray and and my own story was here's a, here's a, medical doctor, a surgeon that was ostracized by many in, in his own field.

00;59;12;28 - 00;59;27;06
Speaker 2
because he didn't he didn't like the things differently. So, I don't know what to do to to make that happen, except to just continue to have conversations kind of like we're having now. Yeah.

00;59;27;09 - 00;59;55;29
Speaker 1
And yeah. So it's like, well, it's just another conversation. I'm not going to make any more changes. right. I know that it's really difficult situation because of that, kind of had capitalism issues. So. The patient is left out the system and fine. You're experiencing it. thirty Years ago.

00;59;56;02 - 01;00;03;09
Speaker 2
30 plus years ago, you.